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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Feb 3, 2012 1:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

“Piracy is the new radio,” he said. “That’s how music gets around. That’s the real world for kids.” - Neil Young

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2012/01/31/neil-young-defends-both-record-companies-and-piracy/

While artists like Springsteen and Dylan were railing against bootlegging, the Grateful Dead turned what most artists regard as copyright theft into a huge marketing tool that ultimately turned a band with a relatively modest following into the number one live act for over a decade. I think that allowing the recording of concerts and their "after we're done with the music it belongs to the fans" policy was a huge factor in building Fan loyalty and concert attendance.
When I was gong to 30 or so shows a year, nothing motivated me more than hearing the latest smokin' shows and what tunes they were playing and pulling out..

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Feb 4, 2012 9:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

But the model doesn't work around here. You can still listen to 95% of what is available right here and many people (including yourself, i believe) refuse to purchase the 5% simply because they believe they have the right to the have all 100% for free. If the model worked, people would be willing to purchase the 5% because of what they heard here.

I think the disconnect with what Neil is talking about and with your experiences are that you were never really listening to tapes to purchasing recordings. What you described was a means to build a fan base that was purchasing concert tickets. So that model of having tapes worked great to build the concert-going fan base. Unfortunately we can't purchase tickets for this band any longer.

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Feb 4, 2012 8:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

Elbow:
I hesitate to reply for fear of starting this whole debate again, but for decades it did work with me until the decision in 2005 and what I felt was an insulting patronizing attitude from Bobby, in particular. It still works with me with such bands as Max Creek, String Cheese etc. I bought every GD release, even if I had it on another source, I went to 100's of shows and I bought tons of GD merchandise, books, videos etc. I have all the Dick's Picks, box sets, dvds, studio releases, live releases etc. I have a whole closet full of at thousands of dollars worth of GD stuff. As I said, the band doesn't owe me anything, but by the same token I don't owe them anything either. I know I've missed out on some cool stuff like the Fillmore Box Set and the Europe '72 release, but I'm a stubborn guy and I'm sticking to my guns. I will still go see Phil and Friends, Furthur, Seven Walkers etc. live though.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Feb 4, 2012 8:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

PG,
You have always been very clear about your stance on this and very consistent which is why i remembered that you were no longer purchasing merchandise from GD/Rhino. I was not passing judgement on you at all and if it came off that way, i apologize. I was just trying to point out that what Neil talked about in that article is not really consistent with the Grateful Dead experience you described and that it wasn't really translating to increased disc sales by having all this music available. I received my copy of Dave's Picks Volume 1 today. I did not order the subscription because i refuse to purchase this stuff in a blind fashion so i could not place my order until this volume went on sale individually. My packaging was stamped around 8200/12000. That tells you how little of this stuff they actually sell. Oddly enough for me, the Neil theory does work. If I hadn't discovered this place back in 2005 (months before the Thanksgiving massacre and Bob's unfortunate "see ya" comment, i doubt i would have ever purchased any Grateful Dead music in the last 6 years. Being able to listen here allowed me to reconnect with something i had lost in 1995.

I try to take the glass is half full approach to what happened back in 2005. The explosion of activity on the LMA forum following the pulling of the music, was in part responsible for the IA folks to split the GD collection out of the LMA collection and they gave us this forum for ourselves. Six years later and we are still having fun!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Feb 4, 2012 12:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

Agreed; you've raised an impt issue (touring; in fact, this counters the "new acts" concern I noted above, possibly).

I still think, overall, the studies suggest it "works" (letting it spread), but without all the necessary data, it is speculative (the nephew notes it is rec'ing a great deal of attn, but each band, each model, is idiosyncratic, blah, blah, blah).

They all seem to agree that you can't stop it, and shouldn't on small, personal use scales (but defn might want to shut down lg web based distribution centers, I suppose).

To me, the "ideal" was what made it work for the DEAD; ie, that fans were fanatics, like me, in part BECAUSE of this notion (they aren't out for a profit, etc.). It is hard to say if these vague "principles" matter to the youth of today, with respect to some bands and not others, etc., etc.

See? So many intangibles/particulars, that each band/model is apples and oranges, ya know?

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Feb 3, 2012 1:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

Agreed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXKooib9hTs

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Feb 4, 2012 8:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

I hear what Neil is saying, but the quality of the music you buy doesn't matter quite as much when the quality of your playback equipment is only average. I find a lot of guys in my age range (45) are in the same boat: when we were younger, we didn't have the coin for the really high end systems; now that we're older and (modestly) better off, we've got other priorities vying for our discretionary dollar (house, kids, vacations, etc).

As for the rest of it, I'm sick of having the shortcomings of MP3s explained ad nauseum. I understand the issues fully. I get it- and I've made my own call. The convenience of MP3s- download times, storage space, etc - outweighs the downsides. Neil might be right that I "shouldn't" have to make that choice, but I do- and I have. When they come up with a lossless, hi rez format that addresses these issues, I'll be all over it. Until then...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Feb 4, 2012 7:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

Hey PG--this has been my line for +30 yrs, and as you may recall, often discussed here (the famed Jerry quote, the differing interpretations by folks here, etc.).

In the end, a number of studies have suggested (I have a nephew in law school studying this exact issue) that a) you can't stop it, and b) it appears to be an EXCELLENT biz model (yes, that term again).

Thus, whether they planned it all along, or more DEAD like, it just "happened", even if Bobby later got his undies in a bunch over college costs and his fair share, it fundamentally works to let your music spread...

I suppose the only counter argument might still be along the lines of "new acts" or "niche market acts" with slim margins, etc., but fundamentally, it was ALWAYS what OUR band was to be about (I know, I know; times changed, and Jerry never thought of the digital DL age, BUT the principle ALWAYS stood, and transcends such materialistic concerns).

IMHO.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Feb 4, 2012 8:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

So, do you think it's OK to DL files from Pirate Bay...as long as it's for personal use/no profit?

Those free Europe 72 Flac's are sooo tempting - lol
I've not fallen yet...

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Poster: dark.starz Date: Feb 4, 2012 8:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young's take on Steve Jobs and MP-3

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/01/31/BUJ61N0KKO.DTL

While MP-3 and AAC files often permanently delete as much as 90 percent of the data of the original music file, uncompressed formats, and even lossless compression codecs like Apple Lossless and Flac, preserve all the bits in the original music file.

"The convenience of the digital age has forced people to choose between quality and convenience," Young said. "They shouldn't have to make that choice."


I'm certain i-tunes will eventually be in the 24-bit/192khz high-resolution file business.

Why Dead.net hasn't busted a move towards High-Rez file offerings of future Dave's Picks and any other re-mastering of all vault music including many previous "Dick's Picks" shows is beyond comprehension in todays computer audio driven music business model.

I believe that Rhino should hire Charlie Miller for their in-house transfer and mastering duties. Granted there may be a need for investment in new hardware, couldn't think of a more perfect fit for both parties.



This post was modified by dark.starz on 2012-02-05 04:26:58

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Feb 6, 2012 7:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young's take on Steve Jobs and MP-3

I would like to work for Charlie and Rhino in this vein. I believe I could contribute to "Promotions" by creating and organizing web-based social networking structures that are dedicated to these new projects.

Re: "Hear what's missing from an MP3 recording."

Recording engineer Pat McMakin, of Ocean Way Nashville, demonstrates the quality difference between a CD recording and an MP3 recording. Watch his embedded video in this article:

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120204/BUSINESS06/302040018/Music-lovers-pursue-return-high-fidelity


This post was modified by dead-head_Monte on 2012-02-06 15:01:04

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Feb 3, 2012 7:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

>He proposed to reconcile the seemingly contradictory points of view by proposing a world in which consumers use piracy or free services like Spotify to sample music, then buy high-quality files of music they value.

Which is basically what the GD does. Except that you can "sample" a gazillion whole shows, and then somehow end up buying high-quality versions after all. Not every listener, and not every show, but enough to keep them raking in the $$$ some 17 years after their demise.

Hmmmm, Neil Young isn't on the archives ...

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Poster: rastamon Date: Feb 4, 2012 9:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy


"Hmmmm, Neil Young isn't on the archives ..."

Good point! He is at LL, bt.etree & dime though. Perhaps he's not at the Archive because of his dislike of anything but analog

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Poster: William Tell Date: Feb 4, 2012 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

Hey Rose--not wanting to "call you out", BUT I suppose it's safe to say the CREAM didn't really "take", eh? Don't worry--that's the way it's been EVERY time (ie, I "fail" to produce a "convert" willing to invest in them, or whatever...).

Here's why I mention it: the success rate for "turning" someone to CREAM is ~ 0; for the DEAD, for me, over the yrs, I would say runs about 2-5% (at best).

But, you get the idea; me doing my thing for the DEAD over the years may have actually produced paying customers (I am sure it did for ~ 15-20 individuals, but that's > 35 yrs "work" on my part).

Not so with CREAM.

;(

Still hope you at least enjoyed some of Jack's amazing bass work...

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Feb 5, 2012 8:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

Oh, I think it's cool -- although of course it's not the Dead :-) It's also heavier, a la Hendrix, so it's probably not something I'd listen to a ton on a daily basis ... gotta be in the mood for it. Which is actually interesting to me; 60s GD is pretty "heavy," and yet I DO listen to it a lot. So, what's the difference? My guess is that a big part of it just comes down to Jerry, but I'm not sure I can pinpoint yet what I mean by that.

On "conversion rates": I think part of what always pulled people into the GD at the start was the whole community aspect. Of course that's no longer there per se, but then that spawned the jam band scene, so I think younger folks come in from Phish etc. So with the GD, the music has incredible staying power -- it's certainly proven that -- but I think we're kidding ourselves if we think the initial draw is 100 percent the music. I think that's a "co-draw" (in various mixes, depending on the person), and the proportion of the mix changes over the years. If that makes sense.

Other bands just don't have that community aspect/implications/perceptions, so I'm not surprised if "conversion rates" to extreme enthusiasm a la GD (as opposed to "yeah, this is cool music") would be real low. Honestly, if Hendrix wasn't HENDRIX and associated with being Mr. Sixties Purple Haze, would people listen? (And do people listen to Hendrix as much as the GD? Hmmm. Depends on what is meant by "as much." MORE people know Hendrix and have, like, an album; but in terms of enthusiasm and amount of daily listening? Well, of course there's not as much, but even then ........)


This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2012-02-06 04:11:07

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Feb 5, 2012 8:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy


"Other bands just don't have that community aspect/implications/perceptions" - lots of communities out there. just gotta poke around...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAC5vJxlPqQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JpBqOG2Rp8

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Feb 5, 2012 9:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

I'm sure that's true -- heck, punk was (is?) a community too -- and I'd bet that helps the "conversion rates." Goth, emo, whatever ... all of that is niche, and hence there's a big element of community belonging/identification. But in terms of a band with as long a history as the GD, I don't think there's any that's as closely associated with the idea (and mythos) of community, and that continues to be associated with it (even 17 years after the band's demise!), and also has the catalogue of music to keep that alive in many ways (and to keep that associated with the band itself. I mean, there may be a community around Wilco, but your average person DOES know what a "Deadhead" is, complete with stereotypes, and yet would not have heard of Wilco.)

And if you went back to when WT was in his heaviest conversion phase (70s, I'd guess), the GD really did have a very specific "community vibe" that I do think was at least a partial initial entry point. That's not to say people "came for the party and stayed for the music," cuz it's not nearly that simple, but there was an element of that. And that's gotta help "conversion rates"!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Feb 6, 2012 5:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

Yes, I think you summed it all up nicely and also, yea, I see what you mean about CREAM, Jimi, etc. Somehow I went from 68 DEAD, The Eleven, to Spoonful/NSU, and it just works easily, but a steady diet is tough...

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Feb 4, 2012 5:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

Unfortunately, if you read the comments, I think they're right that there are just too many of us ignoramuses who can't tell the difference from the high-quality audio and all the other sources, and "just want to hear the song."

Then again, some of us ignoramuses will still buy the recordings, but it's more because we're sheep following the crowd, than out of true appreciation. But of course, that works in marketing too ...

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Poster: dark.starz Date: Feb 4, 2012 6:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Neil Young Defends Both Record Companies and Piracy

Computers (hardware) were never designed or engineered for high-fidelity music playback, some exceptions have recently become available on the consumer market. To differentiate the sonic qualities of various recordings and digital file storage methodology requires a high-resolution music playback system.

The limitation of computers and I-pods are the cheap little headphone amplifiers and digital to analog convertors integrated into the chassis with all the other circuitry that generates noise. Further, many people listen through low fidelity earbuds or plastic desktop PC speakers.

If you were fortunate enough to have experienced the Grateful Dead live you have a basis, an audible point of reference for how the music sounded when it was performed. From the “Wall the of Sound” up through and including the great touring sound systems from 1989 - 1993, you have experience with some of the all-time greatest hi-fi systems ever designed.

You’d have to spend “hundreds of thousands” of dollars for a home audio system to get close to this live concert sound, but you’d still lack the overall dynamics and scale of the live experience.

Cost effective methods are available today to bypass the crappy computer audio circuitry, deliver and process the digital signal directly out of the PC via the USB output and I-pod docking stations.

These cost-effective (many under $1,000 solutions) desktop high-fidelity headphone amplifiers that integrate both better quality amplifiers and digital to analog convertors to drive any number of high quality headphones, or quality compact desktop active monitor speakers that integrate the amplifier and digital convertor circuitry inside the speaker enclosure to provide a more lifelike musical experience.

If you chose to pursue an upgrade, i think that you would be amazed at the improvement in the musicality of the performances, and now higher resolution music files will begin to make more sense.

If you truly love the music, the closer you get, the better the experience.